Walter - My notes on some of the "Bassi" issues in the Messiah are represented in the enclosed table. As you can see in Mvt. 1,4 "And the Glory of the Lord", the Arnold edition confirmed your theory that the alto and soprano clefs were used for the organ, and the tenor clef was use for the violoncello. This continues to be the case through the first part and until Mvt. 2,3 measure 75, when both Chrysander and Arnold have tenor clef but Arnold specifies "Org:". Things get more complicated in Mvt. 2,4 when the instances of specifying "Org" in tenor clef seem as logical as when it is specified in alto clef. . Then in Mvt. 2,11 there are many instances of alto clef in both editions when Arnold specifies "Org e Violonc.". The notes are low enough so that cellists could read them in the G clef which would be easier for the Organ, if it is decided that the violoncello should play some notes written in the treble clef. (n.b. my notes on p.150 of the CCARH edition) In Mvt. 2,4, and some later movements, there are many instances in the Arnold edition where there are additional high notes for the Org., which are almost always the upper line of notes in the Chrysander Pianoforte part. Actually there were many places where not all of the Org. notes in Chrysander were included in the CCARH edition and this was probably my oversight. But on taking a closer look at the "extra" notes in Mvt. 2,4, I wonder how useful they all are. And then there is the question of pickup notes. In Mvt. 2,4 Arnold obviously wants the Org. to take the three pickup notes in meas. 57, but there are other similar places (i.e. meas. 21-22) where he doesn't specify the pickup to be for the Organ. As long as I was going through both the Arnold and Chrysander editions, I decided to note information on the oboes, in case at some future time we want to make another addition or add notes to this addition. In the early movement 1,13, Chrysander has many TUTTI indications which seem to be a signal for oboes to play. Then in a later movement 2,6 he has "con Rip per tutto" between the violin staffs, "TUTTI" above the Basso staff, and "Tasto solo" below it. Only the "Tasto solo" made it into the CCARH edition and I am wondering if the TUTTI may have referred to oboes. In this case the CCARH edition reflects the Arnold edition at the beginning. But throughout this movement Arnold has frequently specified "Org" when there is a tenor clef. I have not changed it but I'm really puzzled by the beginning, for it is one of those places I find very confusing and it makes me feel very humble about my part in such an important project. I noticed that the Chrysander edition often used "con Rip" and "senza Rip". At corresponding instances Arnold would often have "for" or "pia and CCARH would usually have the conventional "f", "p", "[f]", or "[p]". A lot of miscellaneous information like this has been documented in the table, which I have been constructing as I go through the work. I'm sure that not all of the information will end up being important but perhaps it will be a handy reference. It is not always easy to read, so if you would like me to type up the table and put it in a file, I would be happy to do so. There are a few instances where I've thrown out some ideas which you may or may not want to include in this edition. For example Mvt. 1,14A, an instrumental Larghetto on CCARH p. 67, would be a lot clearer to a contemporary conductor if a Viola & perhaps a Violin 3 staff were included in the score. In this case there is plenty of room on this page for extra staves. But then there is also something to be said for keeping it simple, for perhaps it is easier to grasp at a quick glance the way it is. I am marking your printout in RED for the corrections you asked for, namely changing alto & soprano clefs to G treble clefs and making the notes cue size. In ORANGE I am marking alternatives which I feel should possibly be considered. (i.e. I noticed that on CCARH p.75 Mvt. 1.19 there were full size notes in treble clef in a passage which included cue size notes and wondered if that was to indicate that a solo cello should play along with the Org.? Other possible instances like that have been marked in orange.) In BLUE I have indicated a lower level of possible things to consider. Mostly it is instances of Org. notes in the Chrysander and Arnold editions which do not appear in the CCARH edition. A few dynamics and rests which are confusing or out of place I have marked with pencil to call attention to them, although you undoubtably would have noticed them yourself. For ease of working on this project I have also written in pencil some pertinent information from the Arnold edition. Please let me know if I can be of further help. Frances Bennion October 24, 2003 TABLE ============= Mvt. Meas. Chrysander CCARH Arnold ------+------+------------------------+------------------------+------------------------ 1,4 | 84-9 |p.18 Alto clef |p.16 Fewer notes than |p.15 Alto clef "org:" And | |(same notes as Arnold) | Chyr or Arnold |(same notes as Chry) the | | | | Glory| 95 |p.19 Tenor clef |p.16 Tenor clef |p.15 Tenor clef | | | | "Violonc:" |107-10|p.19 Soprono clef |p.17 Soprano clef |p.16 Soprano clef "Org:" ------+------+------------------------+------------------------+------------------------ 1,10 | 1 |p.55 "Tutti (e Oboe I & |p.47 No mention of oboi |p.37 No mention of oboi O Thou| | II unis)" | | that | 3 |p.55 "Con Rip" over bar |p.47 "f" |p.37 "for" tell- | | line | | est | 5 |p.56 Sop. clef |p.47 Sop. clef (cont.) |p.38 Sop. clef | | | | | 6 |p.56 Tenor clef |p.47 Tenor clef (celli) |p.38 Tenor clef | | | | | 8 |p.56 Bass clef |p.47 "Tutti" Bass clef |p.38 Bass clef ------+------+------------------------+------------------------+------------------------ 1,12 | 0 |p.62 "Senza Rip" |p.53 "Violini unisoni" |p.43 Viol: 1o e 2o The | | "Violini e Viola | "Bassi" | T.S. below basses people| | unisoni" | | at 1,10,20,24,35,41 that | | "(Bassi)" | | 50 & 55. ------+------+------------------------+------------------------+------------------------ Mvt. Meas. Chrysander CCARH Arnold ------+------+------------------------+------------------------+------------------------ 1,13 | 0 |p.66 "con Rip." |p.55 |p.45 [meas 1-5] For | | "(c. Oboe I)" on | | "Oboe 1o e 2o col unto | | Viol 1 staff | | Soprano" us a | | "(c. Oboe II)" on | | [no further oboe Child| | Viol 2 staff | | markings] | 7 |p.66 on the Sop. staff | | | | "TUTTI (e Oboe I & | | | | II unis)" | | | 12 |p.67 "(TUTTI)" above | | | | Tenor staff | | | 18 p.67 "TUTTI" above | | | | Alto staff | | | 19 p.68 "TUTTI" above | | | | Bass staff | | | 33 |p.69 "con Rip" |p.58 "[f]" |p.48 m.32 "for" | | | | | 37 |p.70 "sensa Rip" |p.59 "p" | | | | | | 49 |p.71 "con Rip" |p.60 "[f]" | | | | | | 53 |p.72 "senza Rip" |p.60 "p" |p.51 m.55 "pia" | | | | | 68 |p.74 "con Rip" |p.63 No dynamic, but an | | | | obvious forte | ------+------+------------------------+------------------------+------------------------ Mvt. Meas. Chrysander CCARH Arnold ------+------+------------------------+------------------------+------------------------ 1,14 | |p.78 "PIFA" Three staves|p.67 "PIFA" Three staves|p.57 "Sinfonia Pastoralle" | | Viol III all'8va | make staff for viola?| Staff for Viola; no | | bassa | | mention of Viol III ------+------+------------------------+------------------------+------------------------ 1,19 | 18 |p.86 Same notes as Arnld|p.73 Two less notes than|p.61 Same notes as Chry Glory | | | Chry or Arnold | to God| 21 |p.86 " " " " |p.74 " " " " |p.62 " " " " | | | | | 35 |p.88 F4 in chord |p.75 No F4 in chord |p.63 F4 in chord ------+------+------------------------+------------------------+------------------------ 1,23 | 1 |p.112 "Tutti (e Oboe I)"|p.98 No mention of oboi |p.78 No mention of oboi | | on Sop. staff | [p] in Tutti Bassi| but "Tutti" above Sop. | | "sensa Rip" at top| | staff | 5 |p.112 "Tutti" on Tenor | | | | staff | | | 6 |p.112 "Tutti" on Alto | | | | staff | | | 8 |p.112 "Tutti" on Bass | | | | staff | | | 10 |p.113 "con Rip" |p.99 "f" |p.79 "for" | | | | | 11-12|p.113 "senza Rip" |p.99 "p" |p.79 "pia" | | | | | 14 |p.113 "con Rip" | | | | | | | 15 |p.113 "senza Rip" | | | | | | | 18 |p.114 "con Rip" |p.100 "f" |p.80 "for" | | | | | 19-20|p.114 "senza Rip" |p.100 "pp" |p.79 "pia" | | | | | 22-23|p.114 "con Rip" |p.100 f |p.80 "for" | | | | | 23-25|p.115 "senza Rip" |p.100-1 [p]pp |p.80 "pp" | | | | | 29 |p.115 "con Rip" |p.101 f |p.80 "for" | | | | | 30 |p.115 "senza Rip" |p.101 [p] | | | | | | 34 |p.115 "con Rip" |p.102 f |p.82 "for" | | | | | 35 |p.116 "senza Rip" |p.102 p |p.82 "pia" | | | | | 36 |p.116 "con Rip" |p.102 f |p.82 "for" ------+------+------------------------+------------------------+------------------------ Mvt. Meas. Chrysander CCARH Arnold ------+------+------------------------+------------------------+------------------------ 2,1 | 1 | sensa Rip |p.102 No dynamics |p.84 No dynamics Behold| | | | the | 4 | con Rip | No dynamics | No dynamics Lamb | | | | of God| 17-18|p.119 Sop. clef |p.109-110 Some notes are|p.86 Sop clef "Org:" | | | are cuesize and some | [m.16-23] Tutti at Bass | 21-23|p.120 Sop. clef | are regular size | clef ------+------+------------------------+------------------------+------------------------ 2,3 | 12 |p.135 Alto clef (1 note)|p.120 Alto clef (leave |p.92 Alto clef Surely| | | as full size note? | | | | | And | 27 |p.138 Sop. clef |p.122 G-clef; cue size |p.94 Sop. clef with | | Senza Rip. | notes | senza Rip his | 38 |p.138 Tenor clef |p.123 Tenor clef; full | Strps | | | size notes | | 46 |p.139 con Rip; Bass clef|p.123 Bass clef; full |p.94 con Rip: Bass clef | | | size notes | | 75 |p.140 Tenor clef |p.124 Tenor clef; full |p.96 Tenor clef "Org" | | | size notes | | 84 |p.141 Tenor clef |p.125 Tenor clef; full |p.96 Tenor clef "Org" | | | size notes | | 90 |p.141 Tenor clef |p.125 Tenor clef; full |p.96 Tenor clef "Org" | | | size notes | | 107 |p.142 Tenor clef |p.126 Tenor clef; full |p.97 Tenor clef "Org" | | | size notes | | 107 |p.142 First quarter = D4|p.126 First quarter is |p.97 First quarter is | | | a full size D4 | a rest ------+------+------------------------+------------------------+------------------------ Mvt. Meas. Chrysander CCARH Arnold ------+------+------------------------+------------------------+------------------------ 2,4 | 4 |p.143 Ten. clef; 4th8th |p.127 Ten.clef; 4th8th =|p.98 Ten.clef; 4th8th All we| | = C4,F3 + D4,C4 F4,E4 | F3 | C4,A3 Org.then like Chry like | | above | | Sheep| 5 |p.143 3rd&4th-8ths D4;C4|p.127 3rd&4th-8ths same |p.98 3rd&4th-8ths Bf4,D4 and | | | as Chry | A4,C4 | 21 |p.145 Alto clef; double |p.129 Alto clef; |p.99 Sop. clef:Org added | | stops, like Arnold | F4. E4, A4, G4 | A4, G4, C5, B4 | 22 |p.145 8ths->C4,B3,D4,C4 |p.129 same as Chry, not |p.99 Added 8ths like Chry | | F4,E4,D4,C4 | Arnold | pianoforte top notes | 40 |p.147 whole passage in |p.131 Same as Chry |p.101 First 2-8ths in the | | bass clef | don't change | Tenor clef | 51 |p.148 Tenor clef middle |p.132 Same as Chry-full |p.103 Tenor clef; Org: | | 4 8ths | size notes | | 57 |p.148 Last 4 8ths full |p.133 Like Chry (pick up|p.103 Last 3-8ths pick-ups | | size in bass clef | to org?) | Org bass clef | 58 |p.148 Bf3,A3,D4,C4,F4, |p.133 same as Chry, |p.103 Additional eights above | | E4,G4,F4, Alto clef | Add notes? | as in the Pianoforte in | | | | Chry - in Alto celf | 59 |p.148 Bf4,A4,G4,F4(8ths)|p.133 same as Chry. |p.103 [see above] | | | Add notes? | ------+------+------------------------+------------------------+------------------------ 2,6 | 1 |p.153 con Rip, per tutto|p.137 Also Tasto solo as|p.108 Tutti & Tasto Solo He | | Tutti in Basso staff | in Chry | trust-| 6-8 |p.153-4 Last note (Ef) |p.137 No upper voice |p.108-9 Upper voice same as ed | | tied to m.8 in upper | Tutti Bassi | Chry except no tie Ef4 to in God| | keyboard vioce; bass cl| | m.8 Bass clef | 11-14|p.154 Alto dlef |p.138 Treb. clef version|p.109 Alto clef same as | | | of Chry -fixed- | Chry | 21 |p.155 Ten. clef |p.139 Like Chry - don't |p.110 Ten. clef Org. | | | change | | 27-32|p.156 Ten. clef |p.140 Like Chry keep |p.110-11 Ten. clef | | | | | 29 |p.156 4th 8th-note = Bf3|p.140 Like Chry |p.110 Ten. clef; Org 4th | | | | 8th-note = F3 like viola | 35 |p.157 Last tow 8ths full|p.141 Like Chry (keep |p.111 Last two 8ths Org. | | size notes | pick-up) | | 36-38|p.158 Ten. clef |p.142 Like Chry |p.112 Org. on last tow 8ths | | | | | 39-41|p.158 Ten. clef |p.142 Like Chry (keep |p.112 Ten. clef Org 2-notes | | | pick-up) | before ------+------+------------------------+------------------------+------------------------ Mvt. Meas. Chrysander CCARH Arnold ------+------+------------------------+------------------------+------------------------ 2,11 | 1 |p.169 senza Rip |p.150 No senza Rip |p.118 Like CCARH Lift | | | | up | 5-10 |p.169 Alto clef |p.150 Like Chry |p.119 Alto clef; Org e your | | | | Violone. heads| 15 |p.170 Alto dlef; senza |p.151 Like Chry without |p.119 Alto clef; Org e | | Rip | "senza Rip" | Violone | 19 |p.171 cib Rip |p.152 Like Chry & Arnold|p.120 "Tutti" | | | without con Rip on | | | | Tutti | | 26-29|p.171-2 Alto clef |p.152-3 Like Chry |p.121 Alto clef; Org e | | | | Violone | 30-31|p.172 Alto clef |p.153 Like Chry (put in |p.121 Alto clef; Org | | | cue & treb. clef) | | 36-38|p.173 Ten clef |p.153 Like Chry |p.122 Ten Clef Org e | | | | Violone | 36 |p.173 last note F3 |p.153 Like Chry (keep) |p.122 Last note C4 | | | | | 38 |p.173 Sop. clef |p.154 Upper notes in |p.122 Soprano clef | | | Chry missing(A5s&G5) | same as Chry | 42-47|p.173-4 Ten clef |p.154-5 Ten clef |p.122 Ten clef; Organ & | | | | Violone | 55 |p.175 Sop. clef |p.156 Like Chry |p.124 Sop clef Org e | | | | Violone | 65 |p.176 Alto clef |p.157 Like Chry |p.125 Alto clef Org | | | | | 67 |p.176 Tenor clef |p.157 Like Chry |p.125 Tenor clef Org ------+------+------------------------+------------------------+------------------------ Mvt. Meas. Chrysander CCARH Arnold ------+------+------------------------+------------------------+------------------------ 2,13 | 4 |These pages are missing |p.159 Treble cue notes |p.127 Treble clef; Org. Let | |from my Chrysander, but | but notes missing that | all | |I feel that the CCARH | are in Arnold | the | |edition reflects Chry, | | Angels| 5 |except perhaps for the | |p.127 Sop clef for the of God| |high notes for the Org | | last 3 8ths | |in Arnold | | | 10 | |p.160 Alto clef notes |p.128 Alto clef more | | | missing from Arnold | notes than CCARH Org. | 15 | |p.160 Tenor clef (leave |p.128 Org. | | | as is) | ------+------+------------------------+------------------------+------------------------ 2,18 | 1-2 |p.238 Sop clef; Extra |p.208 Treble cue size |p.164 Notes like Chry Let us| | notes | like Chry, but missing| break | | | notes | their | 5 |p.238 Tenor clef (for |p.208 cue size notes in |p.164 Org. Tenor clef. bands| | cello?) | Bass clef (leave) | | 10 |p.239 Alto clef |p.209 Alto clef same cue|p.165 Alto clef same as | | | size notes (leave) | CCARH | 15 |p.239 Tenor clef |p.209 Tenorclef (leave) |p.165 Tenor clef | | | | | 23 |p.240-1 Alto clef top |p.210 in Bass and Treble|p.166 Like Chry | | extra notes | cue but missing notes | | 27 |p.241 Tenor Clef |p.211 Tenor clef same as|p.167 Org. + same as | | | Chry | Chry | 29 |p.241 Tenor Clef |p.211 Tenor clef same as|p.167 Org. + same as | | | Chry | Chry | 32 |p.241 Sop. clef, notes |p.211 Treble clef, cue |p.168 Sop. clef Org. | | same as Arnold | notes (fixed) | | 35 |p.242 Sop. clef, notes |p.212 Treble clef, cue |p.168 Sop. clef Org. | | same as Arnold | notes (fixed) | ------+------+------------------------+------------------------+------------------------ Mvt. Meas. Chrysander CCARH Arnold ------+------+------------------------+------------------------+------------------------ 2,21 | 22 |p.252 Sop clef, then |p.222 Treble clef, cue |p.173 Sop. one note then Halle-| | Tenor clef | size, tenor (fixed) | Tenor Org. [m7-26] lujah| 43 |p.255 Alto clef |p.229 Bass clef; cue |p.177 Alo dlef, Org. | | | size (fixed) | | 71 |p.258 Sop clef after |p.233 Missing quarter A4|p.180 Same as Chry | | 5th eighth | on 7th8th in Chry | | 72 |p.258 Ten clef after |p.233 Missing quarter D5|p.180 Same as Chry | | 1th eighth | quarter F3 eight in | | | | Chry | ------+------+------------------------+------------------------+------------------------ 3,7 | 5 |p.286 Sop clef; Tenor |p.260 Treble clef, cue |p.197 Org. + same as But | | clef (last 8th) | notes; Ten (fixed) | Chry Thanks| 8 |p.287 First note dotted |p.261 Same as Chry; |p.197 First note D4 quarter | | quarter D4 | Tutti pick-up like | | | | Basso (fixed) | | 33 |p.291 Sop clef |p.264 Treble clef, cue |p.200 Org + same as Chry | | | size notes (fixed) | | 43-44|p.292-3 Sop clef; Ten |p.266 Treble & cue size |p.201 Org + same as Chry | | clef | notes; Tenor & reg | ------+------+------------------------+------------------------+------------------------ 3,9 | 28-30|p.303 Sop clef; Tenor |p.273 Treble cue; tenor |p.207 Organ; Violone Worthy| | clef | reg. size (fixed) | same as Chry is the| 39-41|p.304-5 Bass clef; reg |p.275 same as Chry |p.209 Bass clef & TS Lamb | | notes | | (last qtr of m39) | 41-43|p.305 Tenor clef; reg |p.275 same as Chry |p.209 Ten clef Violone | | notes | | | 51-53|p.306 Tenor clef |p.277 Tenor clef |p.210 Ten clef Org. | | | | | 53 |p.306 Bass clef Tasto |p.277 Bass clef Tasto |p.210 Tutti (on last | | solo | solo | quarter of m53) | 58 |p.307 Sop clef |p.278 fixed |p.211 Sop clef, Org | | | | | 61-62|p.308 Sop clef in Thirds|p.278 Tenor clef |p.211 Sop clef; Thirds | | | | like Chry ------+------+------------------------+------------------------+------------------------ Mvt. Meas. Chrysander CCARH Arnold ------+------+------------------------+------------------------+------------------------ 3,10 | 1 |p.310 bass clef Tasto |p.280 Bass clef Tasto |p.213 No Tasto solo Amen | | solo con Rip pertutto| solo | | 11 |p.311 Alto two lines of |p.281 Bass only bottom |p.213 Alto clef like | | notes | line of Chry's notes | Chry | | | in cue | | 13 |p.311 Ten. two lines of |p.281 Tenor clef full |p.213 Ten clef Like Chry | | notes | size notes. Top Chry | | | | notes missing | | 17-19|p.311 Sop. Ten. Sop. |p.281 on first beat of | | | extra notes | m17 there are notes | | | | missing | | 63-64|p.315 Tenor clef |p.284 Tenor clef full |p.217 Ten clef; Org. | | | size notes are O.K. | ------+------+------------------------+------------------------+------------------------ This table copied from Fran Bennion's hand written notes by W. Hewlett 3:30 am. on Jan. 4, 2006